Listen to Mark Driscoll
Tuesday, December 01, 2009

You should listen to Mark Driscoll, if you don't already.
Here's three reasons why:
First, he probably takes the Bible more seriously than you do.
Second, he's willing to engage the culture in a way few pastors and theologians are.
Third, he represents the way Calvinism gets preached and taught in the church when it is embraced wholeheartedly. And Wesleyans need to hear it to understand it.
If you're asking yourself, "Who is Mark Driscoll and why should I care," then let me explain.
Driscoll is the pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle who stands at the forefront of an evangelical resurgence in Reformed theology. Driscoll is a "5-point Calvinist" (a term he embraces) and is causing shockwaves throughout the evangelical world with his unabashed Calvinist preaching, teaching, and writing.
For the purpose of context, you've got to realize that evangelicals (and here I do not mean Wesleyan evangelicals) have long held a theology that is basically a Calvinist and Arminian mishmash. If you don't know what I mean by that, just think for a minute about the incoherence these two statements: "Choose Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" and "Once saved, always saved." Driscoll, on the other hand, comes across like someone plucked out of 17th century New England and set down in 21st century Seattle. He's a Puritan, only a Puritan who wears retro t-shirts and sports a constant five o'clock shadow.
Driscoll has become enough of a phenomenon that the New York Times ran a feature story on him in the NY Times Magazine back in January. The story was - not surprisingly - both snarky and condescending. But the very fact that it was written speaks volumes about the impact he's having on American culture and religion.
I started listening to podcasts of Driscoll's sermons a few months ago after hearing someone remark about his boundary-pushing preaching style. Since then, I've probably listened to a dozen or more of his sermons (which typically run longer than an hour apiece). Here are my thoughts:
First, Driscoll reads the Bible with an intensity that few Protestants - from liberal to evangelical - are willing to do. He has a sense of the authority of Scripture that is right on. Taking the Bible as seriously as he does is deeply needed in the United Methodist Church. And in that sense, he's more Wesleyan than me or just about any Methodist preacher I know. (For the pastors out there, note the way Driscoll engages in what is often called "pre-critical exegesis." He doesn't always do it consistently, but he does have a sense of the way that historical criticism has overreached and made claims that are no more grounded, and sometimes much less so, than the church's traditional claims about Scripture.)
Second, Driscoll looks out at the wider culture around him and recognizes how out-of-step it is with the way of discipleship presented in the New Testament. Again, for context you've got realize that Protestant liberalism is in its death throes. Its tendency is either to devolve into a muddy spirituality that cannot cope with historic and catholic Christian affirmations or to see Christian discipleship as civic participation in a liberal democratic society with a little Jesus thrown in. Either way, it will (and in some cases has) eventually morph into something that isn't recognizably Christian anymore.
Driscoll sees the thinness of mainline Christianity's presentation of the Christian life, and here's what makes his critique so important: he knows that liberal Christians are liberals, but he also understands that most evangelical Christians are liberals, too. (If you don't know what I mean by that, then just note the two distinct ways I'm using "liberal" in this post.) Theologically, Driscoll's kind of where New England Puritanism was in the 1740s and 50s. Liberalism in American culture had its birth there, as those who embraced Enlightenment rationalism began to move steadily away from the "city on a hill" vision of their forebears. Driscoll sees that and throws his lot in with the federal theology of Calvinist orthodoxy. It makes for a vision of the Christian life with a great deal of internal consistency.
Don't get me wrong: I don't agree with a lot of what Driscoll offers in place of the surrounding cultural alternative. But the fact that he's unwilling to allow the politically correct climate of American society to silence him is impressive. And we can learn something from it.
The problem with Driscoll is that his theology's all wrong. His doctrine of God, his soteriology, his ecclesiology: they're out of step with the gospel given to us by Jesus Christ. And - this is important - he advances his Calvinism by invoking a caricatured version of Arminianism. This comes up from time to time in his preaching, as it did in a sermon on the gospel of Luke that I listened to while raking leaves yesterday. That NY Times Magazine article represented Arminian soteriology (though not by name) with an absurd statement that, interestingly enough, could have come from Driscoll himself: "Since the early 19th century, most evangelicals have preferred a theology that stresses the believer's free decision to accept God's grace. To be born again is a choice God wants you to make; if you so choose, Jesus will be your personal friend." In the sermon I heard yesterday, Driscoll mocks the Arminian understanding of humans' role in accepting God's grace while conveniently leaving out such matters as the universal atonement and prevenient grace.
If you are a Methodist, all this has some implications. First, stop worrying about the mind numbingly mundane "church programming" approach to to Christian discipleship and start getting serious about salvation. Read the Bible (everyday) and pick up a collection of Wesley's sermons (here's a good one). Realize that the culture has infected the church to a degree that we need an exorcism. But realize, also, that Driscoll's Calvinism isn't the answer. The horrible decree of double predestination makes God into a monster. But just the same, God is also not the sentimentalized warm fuzzy "presence" that we've allowed him to become.
It's high time that Wesleyans got serious about the gospel God raised us up to preach. We've been playing at dolls far too long.
Labels: Calvinism, Evangelicalism, Mark Driscoll

23 Comments:
Amen! I've been saying for a while that the Calvinist resurgence - especially among young evangelicals - can be helpful to us Methodists if we will pay attention. Helpful because they will take the Bible and CLARITY of theology very seriously and, by doing so, will challenge the Biblical and theological muddiness that seems to be so widespread among Methodist pastors (and indeed in the places where they learn theology).
I think a return to Wesley is exactly what we, for our part, need - and I'm excited to see some signs of that.
Remember he said we "have nothing to do but to save souls" and should always "offer them Christ" - if we aren't doing that, then we aren't being Wesleyan.
Great post, Andrew, and one I'm sure you'll get flamed for. :-)
I don't know if you've read "Death by Love" but Driscoll is amazingly charitable toward Arminians in it. In writing about Limited Atonement he actually admits that, "On one side of this often heated debate are Bible-believing, Jesus-loving Arminians..."
What I like most about Driscoll is that without even knowing it (likely) he is doing theology in a distinctly Wesley-like way. It is very much a practial theology that he teaches.
I'd love to have a conversation with you about Driscoll outside the limitations of blog comments. I've been reading and following him for a few years now and have some thoughts about the benefits of reading/listening to him.
As a gen-x elder in the UMC, I have to agree wholeheartedly with this post. Listening to Driscoll really does leave a strong impression, and we can certainly learn from him. I would also highly recommend listening to another young Calvinist preacher named Matt Chandler at the Village church (in the Dallas area, I believe).
Thank you for this post. I've been listening to Driscoll lately and noticed many of the same things you describe. Anyone know of a "Wesleyan Driscoll" out there anywhere?
I'm really surprised (and impressed) to see you mention Mark Driscoll. I spent several years listening to him on podcast, and learned a lot from him. Including the fact that I am not and cannot be a Calvinist. But also that there are plenty of folks who disagree with us that truly love Jesus.
And @larry, yes, Matt Chandler is at the Village Church in Dallas. He was diagnosed this week with a tumor on his frontal lobe, and will be going into surgery on Friday, so take a minute to pray for him and his family.
Thank you, Andrew, this is really a blog worth reading.
Andrew,
This is the first time I've read your blog (there was a link to this post on scriptoriumdaily.com). As a Calvinist who works at a Free Methodist school, I really appreciate your openness to listening to such a "hard" Calvinist as Driscoll, instead of merely dismissing him because of his Calvinism. I just wanted to make one or two comments.
First, the quote from NY Magazine DOES in fact mention prevenient grace, when it says that Arminianism "stresses the believer's free decision to accept God's grace." Not only that, but Arminianism DOES in fact stress man's free choice in salvation (that is exactly what distinguishes it from Calvinism). So I don't see how any of this is a caricature of Arminianism.
Second, even though you complain about Arminianism being caricatured, you seem to go on and immediately caricature Calvinism unnecessarily by claiming that it turns God into a "monster." A LOT of ink has been spilled by Calvinists for the last 500 years to show that Predestination does NOT make God a monster, and even if you disagree, is it not better to reject Calvinism on exegetical grounds rather than accusing Calvinism of teaching something that it explicitly denies?
Lastly, I would invite you and your readers to consider very carefully whether or not you can (in the long-term at least) actually divide the positives of Dricoll's ministry from his Calvinism without losing something. I do not think it is coincidence that the resurgence of theological depth and serious engagement with the culture in evangelicalism is riding on the back of a resurgence of Calvinism. The two are linked in such a way that they cannot be pulled apart without doing serious damage to both.
Thanks again for your even-handed comments, and for turning on the United Methodist world to a great preacher, despite your differences!
Thanks to all for these helpful comments.
@ A Calvinist: You are absolutely correct in criticizing my use of "monster." That was unnecessary and hypocritical. Thank you for charitably pointing it out to me.
You didn't mention this, but I will explain my use of the term, "horrible decree." I put it in italics because it is the phrase Wesley used to describe the doctrine of predestination. So while the "monster" term was completely unnecessary, I was self-consciously thinking of the historical referent to "horrible decree." It doesn't excuse the former, but perhaps it does more fully explain the other possibly objectionable phrase in that paragraph.
A couple of other points:
First, I agree that trees are known by their fruits, and in that sense, you make a good point about the fruits being borne out of Driscoll's ministry. But I would also caution patience there, as I'm not sure enough time has elapsed to make a solid judgment one way or the other (particularly in regard to the doctrinal foundation of the ministry of Mars Hill Church). As a comparison, I would point to what happened to New England Puritanism after the death of Jonathan Edwards in 1758; it is the very tradition that birthed Unitarianism, and the descendants of the Puritans who remained faithfully Trinitarian do not have a reputation for either numerical growth or fidelity to historic Christian orthodoxy.
And then second, the quote I give in the post from the NY Times Magazine piece shows the way that the Arminian position on free grace is commonly misunderstood. Wesleyans do not believe in "free will," we rather believe in "free grace." That's why the language of "choice" is misleading, because it assumes one is starting from a neutral point with the ability to discern good from evil. We are not truly free to choose; we are rather free to respond. Just as the Calvinist understanding of election cannot be adequately grasped without a full sense of the sovereignty of God and work of redemption through history, neither can the Wesleyan/Arminian account of grace be understood without a full sense of the manner in which grace prevents, accompanies, and follows those who are being saved, as well as the renewal of the soul after the image of God that always draws persons closer to Christ (rather than giving them independent moral agency).
That's why I didn't think the Times piece was very fair. Usually when people invoke "free will" language, they're referring to the unfortunate distortions of the Wesleyan tradition that began in the 19th century and plague us to this very day.
Well, I didn't mean to ramble for so long. Again, thanks for the comments.
@ A Calvinist:
I think the caricature of Arminianism the post is referring to the "Jesus will be your personal friend" part of the Times article. That is a pretty weak trivialization of Arminianism (and evangelicalism in general).
@Darcyjo
Thanks for the info on Chandler; I'll keep him in prayer this week.
just a quick tangent comment. @ larry - you mentioned Matt Chandler in a previous comment. If you would please add him to your prayer list. Matt Chandler had a seizure Thanksgiving morning, fell and hit his head, and was rushed to the hospital. After an MRI and a cat scan, they found a “mass” in the front of one lobe. Just because you mentioned him before.
I'm glad that you took the time and effort to explain free will v. free grace, Andrew. I think the fact that it has to be explained is a result of two things: 1) United Methodists are not grounded theologically in our historic roots. Somewhere along the way, someone talked about free will and choice which appeals to our little self-idolizing hearts and since they heard it in Sunday School or confirmation they took it as hardline Methodist doctrine. You've done us a great service in this thread by distinguishing the Wesleyan understanding.
2) Our Calvinist friend who teaches at the Free Methodist school I think illustrates one of two things: a) The FM school isn't focusing on free grace or b) our friend doesn't read much from Wesleyans. I don't want to disparage him or her, but this has often been my experience with Calvinist friends. We'll get into a jovial debate about theology (in brotherly love, of course) and I'll end up correcting erroneous statements about Wesleyan theology. What I usually find is that while I've taken the time to read Calvin, Sproul, Piper, Driscoll, and a host of others, my friends have not read Collins, Heitzenrater, Chilcote, or others on Wesley but have instead relied upon what other Calvinists write about Wesleyans or Arminians.
All of this to say: WE have done a poor job for many years in teaching theology and preaching it as well.
This may be a drive-by comment...
I do appreciate your desire for the gospel.
While I am not as Calvinistic as I was, I still lean that way.
I do agree that Arminianism is often caricatured by Calvinists, and I in full support of those who have a consistent understanding of their position.
It would be nice to have the same grace extended to Calvinists. A lot of Calvinists do not fall into the double-predestination camp (those are usually Hyper-Calvinists). Instead, we believe in single-predestination where God only chooses those who go to heaven. Those who go to hell, go on their own choice.
Momos -
Actually, Hyper-Calvinism is not defined by "double-predestination" per-se. The hallmark of Hyper-Calvinism is a belief that the gospel is not to be freely offered and proclaimed to everyone. By this definition, there are very few Hyper-Calvinists left.
For a great read on the subject, check out "Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism" by Iain H. Murray.
http://www.amazon.com/Spurgeon-v-Hyper-Calvinism-Battle-Preaching/dp/0851516920
You can't suggest we study up on our John Wesley and then back away from the assertion that double predestination makes God a monster. Or - if you do - you are telling us to read and reject Wesley at the same time.
As Wesley wrote in his sermon on free grace: "It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!"
Wesley also cautioned that we should never use the name "Calvinist" with derision. He had great respect for many Calvinists, but he did not shy away from saying that the doctrine of predestination was blasphemous.
@ John - My explanatory remark to the respondent "A Calvinist" was in reference to a comment he had made, which was in turn in reference to a point in my original post. He pointed out (in a cordial way, which I appreciated) that my protestations about the caricaturing of Arminians was a big disingenuous when I turned around and made a caricaturing remark about the doctrine of predestination. I accepted his critique is what my reply to him was about.
I certainly don't mean to imply that we back away from a rejection of the doctrine of predestination. If you'll note, I explained but did not reject my use of Wesley's phrase, "horrible decree." I don't see that term as a caricature at all, for, while we need to evaluate Calvinists and Calvinism with the same seriousness with which we hope they'll evaluate us, we can still call a spade, a spade.
I think our Calvinist friend was simply objecting to my too-easy use of an epithet. And I agree that he was right to criticize me for it.
@Andrew - Thank you for the explanation. My comment was intended to carry a bit of humor that did not come through in the writing.
Your post got me to go back and read Whitefield and Wesely's exchange on Wesley's sermon on Free Grace. So, thank you for that.
Andrew,
You said here what others have feared to say. It's time to move back to taking scripture and the way of Jesus as seriously as Mark Driscoll does, even though we, like Wesley, will necessarily and seriously disagree with the doctrines of limited atonement and double predestination.
It seems to me that part of what made Edwards's preaching fail, in effect, within one generation, was that there was no "living container" or "objective correlative" that could carry on the implications of it beyond his tenure. It was too identified with him as a preacher in a particular congregation and tradition. It was not about multiplying itself through accountable small groups (and remember, the United Society was utterly failing until the class meetings began) that could continue, in real life, to be places where people were "watching over one another in love."
And of course, among White Methodists in the US, those class meetings were also essentially dead, if not entirely absent, within 50 years of becoming our own church. (They had persisted in a living way longer among African-American Methodists who did not for a variety of reasons assimilate into dominant culture).
It's not enough simply to have the right doctrine. As Wesley himself noted, we are doomed to have a form of religion lacking its power unless we also have the discipline and spirit with which we started out.
And I would argue the essential form of that discipline was accountable small groups NOT controlled by the "y'all come" ethos of congregations, but rather by the "we all grow and help each other grow here-- if that's not what you're into, find another place" ethos of the class meetings and the societies.
And it was always BOTH-AND. Church was NOT just a congregation or just a society for Methodists. It was the lived network of both-- and so a social network that branched everywhere, enough to reform a nation, and even, to some degree, the church.
Peace in Christ,
Taylor Burton-Edwards
http://emergingumc.blogspot.com
http://www.gbod.org/worship
andrew,
thanks for a solid post and plenty to think about.
i've been listening to driscoll and chandler for about a year now and find myself typically enjoying their sermons, though not always agreeing w/their theology. i think they both have engaging speaking styles, chandler more than driscoll but that is just my opinion.
i have experienced what daniel mentioned as i have had a handful of college students decide they are now calvinists based primarily on driscoll's preaching/style. i can't help but wonder if they are responding more to his passion and style than his theology necessarily. have those of us in the UMC used our emphasis on grace as a way of avoiding "getting in people's faces" like a driscoll or chandler might?
matt, great question about a "wesleyan driscoll". have you gotten any feedback because i would be curious to know as well. i'm guessing hamilton or slaughter might have been mentioned or at least thought about.
great discussion going here, thanks again andrew for getting it started.
@ John - Sorry to be so blockheaded! I think previous experiences in blog conversations where I've witnessed frustrations and anger spiraling to unpleasant levels have made me over-sensitive (and perhaps, unable to pick up on irony and facetiousness).
@ Matt - You raise an interesting question. I actually have a theory about the weakness of most Methodist preaching, which I should post about soon. Are you familiar with the stereotype of preachers whose sermons consist of three stories and a joke? I think that unfortunate reality happens through a combination of inadequate theological education (and, along with it, a misunderstanding of inductive preaching), unquestioned fidelity to the lectionary, and an unwillingness to ground the preached word of God in the context of one's own community.
Ok, now I've got to post on it. Check back at the first of the week and I'll try to have something up. I'd be curious to hear what others think about this.
@matt - no feesback on a Wesleyan Driscoll or Chandler yet. Stylistically, Slaughter and Hamilton are different, even though they are certainly Wesleyan, passionate, and great communicators.
I would love to have an audio recording of Wesley or Asbury and see who they sound most like.
We don't need a Wesleyan version of either of these fine men. What we need is what got us the the pejorative name "Methodist", namely some Bible moths who preach the whole counsel of God, and who spend and are spent in that endeavor.
Andrew, despite my affection for you, I really, really, really strongly disagree with you when you say that Driscoll represents wholehearted Calvinism. Not only because as someone who doesn't claim to be in the reformed tradition, you're not in a position to make such judgments (neither am I in a position to say who best represents the Wesleyan position... how would you respond if I went around claiming that Glide Memorial United Methodist Church in San Fran represented wholehearted wesleyansim?) It nearly has the effect of suggesting that someone like me with an extremely different understanding of Calvinism isn't "wholehearted" Calvinist, but some lesser kind.
Driscoll is completely outside of the mainstream (globally speaking). He is not a member of any larger Calvinist grouping, nor are the people he primarily associates with members of the 80 million member world communion of reformed churches. Additionally, his church's practice is barely calvinist. They don't baptize infants or believe in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist, which is a deviation from Calvinist thought (Calvin insisted on Christ's substantial presence and had a high sacramental theology). Nor does it subscribe to a traditional Reformed confession, nor does it place itself in continuity with any of the reformed churches, nor does it consider itself an ecumencial form of Christianity, nor does it claim to be a form of catholicism.
Additionally, his Calvinism is a fundamentalist caricature of reformed thought. Consider his statement (which makes me want to vomit): "Reformed theology offers certainty, with a masculine God who names our sin, crushes Jesus on the Cross for it, and sends us to hell if we fail to repent." These are the words of a dabbling fundamentalist, not someone who has been shaped by a tradition.
Further, definitions of freedom are notoriously tricky. Calvin doesn't deny free will, as some other commentors have suggested. He was self-consciously imitating Augustine's language. See his "Bondage and Liberation of the Will" for a more nuanced understanding of his thought, where he goes through Augustine's works and shows how his project is nothing more than A's. It will show that Calvinism is simply a form of Augustinianism adapted for the refugees Calvin found in his church in Geneva.
See also this article by Todd Billings, a theologian and Calvin scholar that teaches at a reformed seminary in Western Michigan. http://www.rca.org/Page.aspx?pid=2996&srcid=3466
or see this article by the president of Calvin Seminary about what it means to be reformed. http://www.thebanner.org/magazine/article.cfm?article_id=1502
sean
@Sean - Very helpful to this conversation.
@AT - Andrew, I'm looking forward to a conversation here about preaching. I appreciated my additional education on preaching at div school (I'd already been doing it for some time), but think it's missing the mark evangelistically and culturally (i.e. it's 50 years behind and aimed at the upper middle class).
I might be late to the game on this post, but I thought I would point out that Driscoll personally denies double predestination in his book Religion Saves: ... Also, I've found, being discipled in the Wesleyan tradition and later coming to more reformed conclusions, that Calvinists are not the only ones to build caricatures of their opponents.
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